Saturday, February 17, 2007


New book

This post is mainly for Zhubin and Joe but anyone else, feel free to read along...I was just being polite...I didn't think you would actually intrude further where you weren't that's how it's going to be then...fine...

Anywho, thanks to a recommendation by Joe, I just bought a book called Dawkins' God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life written by Alister McGrath. Thought you both might want to check it out as well as it is a followup to most of Dawkins' works by a fellow scientist and former atheist (McGrath's credentials will be up to even Mr. Parang's rigorous criteria, methinks) and simply reviews from another perspective how scientific and imperical knowledge doesn't naturally lead to an atheistic viewpoint in any intellectual human being.

Just starting the book so you two should as well (and anyone else who's still reading) and we can discuss it and in a month have Zhubin applying for seminary. Ave Maria, Zhubin...Ave Maria...

Hmmm. Interesting proposition. I'll see if I can track it down, but we're going to need new suits to wear to Zhubin's baptism.
Sure, I'll see if I can pick it up somewhere, if the book also comes with a Solo cup I can use to drink the Kool-Aid.
Actually, funnily enough, it does...tastes good too...anywho, I really think that...urgh...
Seriously, I wouldn't be against having a sort of blogging book-club-style discussion about this, if you two are up to it.

But I would also like to suggest we all read The God Delusion afterwards.
I'm all up for that...we can then read the Dawkins Delusion after that. Or we can start with the God Delusion and then move onto the Dawkins Delusion and I'll just read this one myself. Thoughts?
Is one a response to the other? Maybe we should read the first one first. Then again, if Chris is already reading the one, maybe we should read that one first.

Just tell me what we're doing. This is a great idea.

Is Scott in on this too? I think Scott should be in on this too. Someone get Scott in on this too.
Well, if we're going in chrono order, we should probably read The God Delusion first. Scott apparently already has a leg up.

So, I suggest we go that way. We'll commit to reading at least two books for now, God Delusion and then whatever response Chris is reading. What say ye?
Chris et al, I have been waiting for this debate to resurface for the past two years.

If I may make a suggestion, forget Dawkins' God by McGrath. You should all begin reading God Delusion because it raises some significant points and is getting a lot of attention. It's a quick and enjoyable read so you should all be done with it in the next week.

If that is too long, then I'd recommend Sam Harris' Letters to a Christian Nation, which is essentially an abstract of Dawkins' God Delusion.

My point is, hurry up, all of you.
My brother's urges notwithstanding, why don't we all agree to start "The God Delusion" this Saturday? This will give us a few days to locate/acquire the book, and for me to finish up reading the awful Atlas Shrugged. We'll say that we'll finish it by March 10, which will give us two weeks. If we all finish ahead of time or we're behind schedule, we'll be flexible.

Also, maybe we should agree on some structure to our discussion, so it doesn't devolve into one of our standard debates. I've never done this sort of thing before, but Joe, you're a teacher. What's the usual procedure for discussing a book? Channel Mr. Daniel here.
I've been channeling Mr. Daniel for hours, and all it's gotten me is eight different flavors of homemade jam!


The best approach is probably to break the book into parts (typically by chapter) and address each individually, so as to limit the breadth of any single discussion. Once we've all read it, we can decide whether chapter-by-chapter or point-by-point or whatever is the most appropriate.

Also, I'd like to observe that Bobak's suggestions seem to basically boil down to not reading any of the Christian perspective. Let's not do that.

How about we agree to go through The God Delusion and then onto Dawkin's God--the important catch being we must all participate in both?
I agree with Joe. Let's not throw out the Christian perspective completely yet...Bobak, McGrath likes science too...I promise. Anywho, the book I am reading is basically a different perspective based on all of Dawkins previous writings before the God Delusion. However, since that is the book that is getting so much press, why don't we start with that to make the "will burn in hell" crowd happy and then move onto The Dawkins Delusion for "those who will sing with angels". I'll just read my original book alone (weeping) and we can start with The God Delusion and then move onto to McGrath's The Dawkins Delusion. Zhubin's time line sounds good and we shall begin discussion on Rag Land on the 10th of March. I set my sign and seal by this. LET IT BE SO!!!!
Joe, my suggestion was to begin with "The God Delusion"--let it serve as the opening book.

My next suggestion was that if "The God Delusion" was too lengthy, Sam Harris' much shorter book would be a suitable alternative. Again, these books were all for the start of the discussion.

I suggested this mostly because there are books currently popping up that are a direct response to "The God Delusion."
I'd like to make a motion that the "will burn in hell" crowd be referred to as "those who will return to the earth," and "those who will sing with angels" be known as "those who will be sorely disappointed."

I can see that it's going to be difficult to have a civil discussion about any of this.
Joe, I was on the floor for about ten minutes from that eight different homemade jams line. Well done, sir.

I definitely agree with the two-book commitment. We may want to go with McGrath's book anyway, if Chris thinks after reading "The God Delusion" that it's a good response, even if written before. Or we can read a specific response to "The God Delusion." We can always pinpoint the exact book later.
I think I'll just wait for Zhubin to eventually discuss how Religion is a social construction, necessary for man to survive.
What I was saying is that the book I am reading was written before the God Delusion. However, let's forget that I mentioned that book and read Dawkins' The God Delusion. Then we can read McGrath's response to it called the The Dawkins' Delusion (different book to the one I mentioned but I'm flexible). This is what will happen. First, the God Delusion, then The Dawkins Delusion. Procure both books with all haste and let no man be recalcitrant in his duty! Also, Joe, I wet myself with the Jam line. ZING!!!! I hope he doesn't get offended if he stumbles upon our discussion...oh wait...we're long as the internet can't be reached by horse and buggy...
Um, I never thought I'd say this, but I don't think you can get that book in the States. doesn't have it for sale, but does. I may be wrong, but I'm almost certainly not wrong.
I've looked at it and you're not wrong. So, we will still start with the God Delusion and then move onto a book called Dawkins's God which should be in the states (it is older than the other). I will go ahead and order the Dawkins Delusion since it is here and is quite short and will try and incorporate it into the longer Dawkins' God when we get there. So buy The God Delusion and Dawkins God and we will work with those two. Sound good?
Do we even need to read Dawkins' God? I'm sure after The God Delusion we'll all pretty much agree that religion is wrong.
Nothing says book club like trash-talking! Heyhooo!
This comment has been removed by the author.
Scott, have you finished the book?

Aren't the last three pages just awesome? Man, it's so awesome.
What I do find funny is that Bobak and Scott have very eloquently demonstrated a big point of McGrath's that Atheism, for many people, is as blind and unable to converse with other viewpoints as it accuses religion of being. If you want to be a part of this book club (S and B) then please only put well thought out ideas on this blog not just how great it is to be an atheist. Otherwise, I will be forced to shoot you...with a gun...a big one...
What I find even funnier is how you and Joe can literally read a simple, straightforward comment and interpret it as a jab at religion.

Chris, I said the last three pages are awesome. He makes a specific analogy--which really has nothing to do with religion. I happen to enjoy those last three pages because of the imagery created by that analogy.

Not once in my comment did I say anything about how awesome it is to be an atheist. Nor did I say anything implying we should not look at other view points!

Furthermore, the only way you can become an atheist is by thoroughly examining other religious viewpoints and realizing they are incongruous and highly unlikely!

Have you ever heard of an atheist who was raised to be an atheist like you hear of Christians raised as Christians? No, of course not!

You can not be a true atheist unless you meticulously examine the reason and philosophy behind other religions! Religion is the very embodiment of what you are attacking--complete faith, no evidence, no need for further analysis.

I would enjoy being a member of this distinguished book club, but on the condition that my text is read with a literal interpretation. There is no menacing subtext present in my comments. I can assure you.
Bobak, your ability to be in the book club is currently under review. However, Joe and I will have to have "complete faith" in your ability to join in the conversation and can accept "no evidence" of prior conversation so it might be touch and go. We'll pray about it... And might I add that your original comment was "forget McGrath"...
Bobak, I haven't finished the book yet. I read at a leisurely pace, and now that the rest of you have made it a mission to read it as well I'm sure you'll finish before I do. Still, if we take the discussion one chapter at a time I'll probably be on track.
Also, I'll be gone for an entire week starting March 3. I think all discussion of books and content of books should be scheduled around my needs.
Just got my copy of TGD in the mail. It's 375 pages, so if we want to be done with the book in 14 days, that's roughly 30 pages a day. Luckily, if we're going chapter by chapter, we don't have to be entirely done to start discussing it.

Scott, what are you smoking, some kind of crack-weed? We won't start discussing the book until March 10, and you'll be back by then. Geez, man, pay attention. And get me some crack-weed. I NEED IT.
Just to let everyone know, I intend on participating in this discussion as well. For those who are unaware, I am Christopher's younger brother. Just thought I'd post this so everyone didn't get confused when some new random guy jumped in and started posting.
First of all, welcome Timothy and enjoy. Secondly, don't forget to also get Dawkins God: Genes, Memes, and the Meaning of Life. That wil be the next book we read after the God Delusion. Lastly, anyone who takes part in this discussion is not allowed to get upset by others views; conversely, please also refrain from personal attacks...let's stick with the material people (Bobak!)...Let the deadline stand and Scott, stop being such a little girl (that wasn't a personal attack; it is imperically proven that Scott's reaction to the beginning date is the act of a little girl)
Seriously, though, Chris, Bobak never said anything pro-atheist or off-topic until your last comment (#23). Scott was the only one trashing religion. Quit hating on my brother, or I'll start hating on Timothy, who smells like fish.

(Timothy, you don't, I'm just trying to hurt Christopher. Play along.)
Also, Chris, if I may, I'd like to suggest that you be very vigilant about moderating comments on the discussion post, and by that I mean that you immediately delete any comments written by non-participants. I don't want to be a dick, but I would prefer that this discussion be limited to those of us who have taken the time to read both books. As it stands, those people consist of you, me, Joe, Scott, Timothy, and possibly Bobak (he hasn't said he's in yet).
This comment has been removed by the author.
I agree with Zhubin. If it's no offense to Rag Land, what if we use this?

It hearkens to a format Chris and I used--and found pretty effective--in a book study we did a while back.
I don't take any offense, Zhubin. I always thought Farzin was the best Parang anyway.
Gentlemen, things are progressing well with the book reading, I hope?

I support the use of that website, Joe, but I may want to suggest that we discuss the book in bigger chunks than what you have currently set up. We'll talk more when we're done with the book. I would like nothing more than a debate about how to debate it.
Joe's site is good but I think we should do a chapter a week. There are, what, 10 of them, so it gives us twelve weeks. And Rag Land, although bereft, will give over its debate power to said club. Let it be so! Oh and Zhubin, Timothy does smell like fish so no harm there!
Sounds good to me. Although I can't stop thinking that the quote from Zhubin, "I would like nothing more than a debate about how to debate it," ought to be on one of those tacky faux-antique wall hangings.

Or immortalized in crochet...
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